Walking Around in Circles

Vox Day was kind enough to respond to my earlier blog entry about his claim to libertarianism. Unfortunately, he was unable to respond with much substance. He makes plenty of claims, but doesn't back them up very well. He also didn't directly respond to the meat of my post (the claims regarding libertarianism), but he says that there is more to come later, so hopefully he will respond to it eventually.

No, it is self-evident that one can only claim that rape is immoral if one subscribes to a coherent moral code which presents a rational basis for universality, (or at the very least makes a claim, however dubious, to universality).

Little does Vox comprehend (but some of his commenters do) that the Christian moral code presents a "might = right" moral code. Does Vox consider that, as he puts it, "rational"? In his WingNutDaily article, he claims that "might = right" is immoral. Where does he get that judgment from anyway -that "might= right" is wrong? Possibly his "I have all the might, so whatever I say is right," Christian God? Vox is borrowing from the same "might = right" moral code that he decries!

As I have demonstrated, many individuals, past and present, have subscribed to coherent moral codes which do not consider rape to be immoral or consider it at most to be a petty crime worthy of minor compensation.

Vox is correct that there are many individuals that subscribed to a moral code that doesn't consider rape to be that big of a deal. The code they subscribe to is Christianity. Christianity most definitely treats rape, as Vox describes it, "at most to be a petty crime worthy of minor compensation." For example, in the Bible, Lot sacrifices his daughters to a rapist mob. The author of Genesis considers rape to be a crime against the honor of men rather than against the woman herself. The virtue of self-ownership or the women's (victim's) rights is not considered. The Bible exposes an inferior moral code by treating women, and accordingly rape victims, as property rather than valid human beings.

Christians are one of the very few groups who possess a coherent moral code which presents a rational basis for universality - I note that this assertion is supported by a vast panoply of non-Christian intellectuals, past and present.

Is this some kind of argument from authority, argument from popularity, or both? I can surely cite a vast panalopy of non-Christian intellectuals, past and present, who say just the opposite. But there is a more important point to Vox's statement. Rather than Vox trying to directly argue that his Christian theology presents a good moral system for condemning rape, he instead says "it's true because lots of other people say so." I, on the other hand, have been supporting my claims directly.

Aaron also conveniently leaves out that I expressly stated that there may be other such moral codes, but neither Aaron nor anyone else has even attempted to present one.

Actually, I didn't leave that out. I quoted Vox's statement about this, and I replied to it. Now I think its Vox who has issues with reading comprehension. That, or he is practicing some "overt intellectual dishonesty." Anyway, for those who missed it, here is what I said in response to his admission that there may be other such moral codes:

Indeed. Vox hasn't heard much -and doesn't know much- about atheism, his own "might = right" Christian ideology, or the moral code within libertarianism. It's kind of sad to watch Vox claim ignorance as a justification for making up things at whim and assigning the wrong features to the wrong worldviews.

In the comments section of Vox's blog, I linked two sites that provide information on coherent moral codes that do not base themselves on the "might = right" dictates of a grand authority, but base themselves on objective reality and/or rational individualism. I will again present them here and here.

Despite 17 years of Christian fundamentalism, Aaron managed to somehow miss the very basis for Jesus Christ's sacrifice.

No, I think I got it. The unjustified destruction of an innocent human to atone for the guilt, both earned and unearned, of every other human in existence. That is what sacrifice is; trying to make a right out of two wrongs. Does Vox Day think that in a libertarian society people could offer themselves as a sacrifice to serve the punishment of a guilty person, therefore setting the guilty one free? Does any justice system in the world today work like that? Is sacrifice even justice? No, it is not. It is two wrongs trying to make a right, and it just doesn't work.

In fact, Vox does not think that everyone is owned by themselves, but by Satan.

See? He's definitely not a libertarian.

Jesus Christ had to die in order to pay the price to redeem humanity, hence the phrase "Blessed Redeemer" that appears in so many Christian hymns.

Again with the sacrifice. I don't think there's anything within the concept of sacrifice that corresponds to any libertarian virtues.

As for the libertarian concept of self-ownership, one always has the right to sell oneself to another individual.

And now we see Vox make another one of his "numerous errors in logic." If Vox thinks everyone is owned by Satan, then how does he think one can sell himself to Jesus? And how can Vox even reconcile the concept of self-ownership with his contention that everyone is already owned by Satan in the first place?

Vox does not think that, Vox has never written that and Aaron is guilty of exaggeration at best, outright lying at worst.

All this after he wrote an article that says date rape does not exist.

As for the question, I might as easily retort: where are the libertarian values of self-responsibility and independence, not to mention justice, in taking exception to the statement that a woman is responsible for the consequences of her actions?

Straw man. Nobody is taking exception to the statement that a woman is responsible for the consequences of her actions. The problem is that Vox thinks that if a woman leads a man on then she loses the right to tell him to stop.

The contention that traditional Western morality is not synonymous with and largely derived from Christian morality is willfully and demonstrably absurd and anyone with even a modicum of historical knowledge must consider it laughable.

Then perhaps Vox can tell us which Biblical scriptures regarding rape have been considered an integral part of traditional Western morality? I’m serious, which passages would those be? And what about the 10 commandments and their according punishments? Has Leviticus 24:16 been integral to traditional Western morality? What about Exodus 21:15 or 21:17? These are some serious moral statements found in scripture that are not found in traditional Western morality. I contend that it is absurd to think that traditional Western morality proscribes death for cursing one's parents or working on the Sabbath. Vox Day should demonstrate how traditional Western morality is based on Scripture, rather than just claim it. Maybe he can start with rape-related passages.

The equation of Christianity with blindness is an unsupported assertion...

Vox doesn't know his Bible very well. Time for me to support my assertion. I again claim that Christian theology demands blind obedience to a self-appointed creator God. And the Bible agrees with me. In proverbs 3:5-7 we read: "Trust in the LORD with all thine heart; and lean not unto thine own understanding. In all thy ways acknowledge him, and he shall direct thy paths. Be not wise in thine own eyes: fear the LORD, and depart from evil." I can't imagine a clearer way for God to call everyone to blindly follow him.

...while the one equating a postulated ultimate authority - aka God - with a "self-appointed authority figure" is a dishonest and illogical caricature. If God as described exists, he is the legitimate and ultimate authority. If he does not exist, then how can he appoint himself?

And finally Vox admits that Christianity is a "might = right" system. But for some reason, I don't think he realized he admitted it.

And yet, he sees the same vaccuum I do, indeed, all he does here is repeat what I have previously stated on a number of occasions: atheism has nothing to say about morality.

We do agree on one thing: atheism has nothing to say on morality. Negative claims tend to be that way, but I don't think Vox understands the difference between a positive and a negative claim. However, libertarianism does indeed have things to say about morality, for it is a political system derived from a moral code. The fact that Vox doesn't understand this either shows that he doesn't understand libertarianism, and is not a libertarian. In fact, throughout his reply, Vox makes no attempt to explain his claims to libertarianism. And as I said before, Vox makes no direct defense or reply to my charge that his ideas are anti-libertarian.

The atheist is provided no basis with which to condemn rape or any other evil by his atheism...

I agree with this. Atheism doesn't concern morality, only the existence of God(s).

...and because he lacks this basis...

Another error of logic from Vox Day. Vox first claims that atheism provides no moral code, then claims that the atheist has no moral code as a result. Vox Day fails to take into account that a moral code may be derived from another source, much less a source that isn't "might = right" in nature. In the case of libertarianism, the moral code comes from the recognition of virtues such as self-ownership, self-determination, and non-coercion.

he is therefore forced to rely on concepts such as "might makes right" when he wishes to condemn the action of another but is unwilling to play moral parasite and piggyback on the morality of others.

Vox writes as if he never read Francois Tremblay's article that I quoted. It has already been successfully argued by Francois that atheists don't subscribe to "might = right" and that it is in fact Vox's Christian religion that expounds this principle. Vox has yet to address it or refute it. Did Vox simply commit a reading comprehension error or is he ignoring it on purpose?

I feel almost as if I am going in circles here. Vox provided little or no substance, merely repeated his previous assertions, and ignored most of my claims. He pretended Francois' essay didn't exist, and he provided no support for any of his statements. He was sure to ask me to provide support for mine, though. It's a good thing for me that my assertions are supportable!